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 Guerre de trente ans : Erratas

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Nombre de messages : 77
Age : 57
Localisation : St-Lambert (Québec)
Date d'inscription : 12/07/2006

MessageSujet: Guerre de trente ans : Erratas   Dim 16 Juil - 9:56

Voici les Erratas officiels de GMT concernant ce jeu :

Thirty Year's War Errata and Clarifications
as of 23 Jan 2002


9.21. If a card event requires that a New Leader be placed with troops of a specific nationality, and no units of that nationality are on the map, then the New Leader may be placed in any friendly controlled city. This rule only applies to New Leader Events where the leaders enter without combat units. Note that the recruiting and stacking restrictions of section

17.0 apply at all times. Example: The Catholic plays Card Event C7 (Wallenstein & Piccolomini) which calls for the new leaders to be placed with any Imperial units, but there are no Imperial units on the map. The Catholic player places Wallenstein and Piccolomini in Ingolstadt in Bavaria, which is Catholic controlled. Because of the restrictions in 17.A, neither leader may recruit while in Bavaria, nor may they stack with Bavarian leaders or units.

15.225 If every unit in an army is lost due to Looting and leaders are left alone, those Leaders are not eliminated. The owning player may place the leaders in any friendly city, subject to normal Nationality restrictions. All leaders must be placed in the same city. If no such friendly city exists then the leaders are eliminated.

17.F.4. CONFLICT OF INTEREST EVENT When the Conflict of Interest event (C-54) is played and while it remains in effect, French and Swedish units may no longer stack together. If French & Swedish units are stacked together WHEN the event is played, the Protestant player has until his NEXT Card Round to remedy the situation. If, at the end of his next Card Round, Swedish and French units are still stacked together, rule 10.22 goes into effect. If Event C-54 is played as the last Catholic card of a turn, the Protestant player has until the end of his first Card Round of the following turn to remedy the situation. This only applies if the Swedish and French units were stacked together WHEN the event was played. If they end an activation stacked together after the event, rule 10.22 goes into effect immediately. Protestant Event P-38 (Oxenstierna) negates the effects of C-54.


2.0 Components

Card Decks

There are 16 Early War Catholic cards and 14 Protestant Early War cards. This is intentional, since the Catholics have many important "Remove Card if the Event is Played" Events in their Early War deck, and so need the extra cards.


Germany is any city on the map that is not in Austria, Bavaria, France, The Spanish Netherlands, or Hungary.
The arrow connections between Denmark/Schleswig and Sweden/Pomerania are only used to note where the Danish and Swedish armies can enter the map, and cannot be used for any other type of movement.


The Protestant leader Frederick of Baden is the leader named "George F. of BD."

There is an extra Imperial Veteran unit counter and a French leader counter named Guebriant that are not used in the game. They were removed in the last round of edits, but too late to make the change in the counter mix.

The "Protestant Army" and "Catholic Army" markers may be used to mark the place of large stacks, with the stacks placed in army boxes on the map.

3.0 Key Terms

3.11 City Control: An army that ends its activation in an enemy city, but does not (or cannott) spend the extra MP to convert the city, must wait until its next activation to spend the MP to assert control. Winning a battle, an overrun, or capturing a city via siege automatically converts the space without an extra MP being required.

3.13 Area Control: A neutral Non-Independent Fortress City shares the control status of the Area, and does not require a siege to change control. An enemy-controlled Non-Independent Fortress City does not share the control status of the Area, and must be besieged to change control. So, to continue the example in the rules, if the Lower Palatine is Neutral, and the Catholic player gained control of the other three cities (and thus control of the Area), the Catholics would also gain control of Wurzburg without a siege being required. If Wurzburg were Protestant, however, Wurzburg would have to be besieged to change control, even if the Catholics gained control of the Area. This rule would equally apply if Wurzburg were Protestant occupied.

Peasant Revolts: Cities with Peasant Revolt markers should be considered Neutral for all game purposes. If you gain control of an area that contains a city with a Revolt marker, you do not gain control of that city. The Revolt is still in existence and subject to normal rules for Revolt spread.
Neutrality: If an Area's neutrality is violated, the Neutral marker is a removed as a reminder. The Area's cities remain neutral, however, until control is asserted over them individually or a player gains control of the entire Area. Players may want to place Neutral markers on the individual cities to help track their status.

4.0 Campaign Game Setup

4.2. Catholic Setup. The Catholic player has an extra 2 VPs beyond what he would begin with for Area, City, and Elector Control. Those extra VPs are a bonus from the election of Ferdinand II as Holy Roman Emperor just before the game begins.

5.0 Determing Victory

5.12: If the Protestant player gains control of a Neutral Area never previously controlled by the Catholics, that Area's VP value is still subtracted from the Catholic total. The VP scale represents political/dynastic victory. A neutral area that the Protestants capture is one more area in political opposition to the Holy Roman Emperor, hence the VP penalty. Control markers are not placed on cities in an Area completely controlled by a player for convenience/tidiness only. If an Area has a control marker, all cities within the Area without a control marker share the area's control status. You may place control markers on the cities if you wish (but you will find that the control markers run out quickly). When the Protestants play Events that bring a previously neutral Area into the war on the Protestant side, the Area's neutrality is NOT violated and the area's VP value is immediately subtracted from the Catholic total. The exception here is the Swedish army entering neutral Pomerania. That does violate Pomeranian neutrality.

5.14. Electoral Control: VP awards for controlling a majority/all Electors are awarded to the controlling player when the control occurs. The VP award is only lost if the opponent achieves the same condition that awarded the VPs. Example: The Catholic player begins the game controlling a Majority of Electors (4). He later gains control of the other 3 and gets the +5 VP bonus. The Protestant player captures an elector. The Catholic does NOT lose the +5 bonus, nor does he get the +5 bonus AGAIN if he recaptures that 7th elector. Eventually the Protestant controls 4 electors. He now gets the 2 VP bonus, which is subtracted from the Catholic VP total (remember, the Catholic always adds VPs, the Protestant always subtracts VPs). Later the Catholic recaptures an elector, giving him the Majority again and the +2 VP bonus. Later still the Protestant captures all 7 electors. He now gets the 5 VP bonus. Now, and only now, can the Catholic get another 5 VP bonus, and only after gaining control of all 7 electors again. If the Protestant player gains control of ALL electors, subtract the 5 VP regardless of whether the Catholic player has received the VP first.

5.15. The penalties of this rule are not invoked if Spinola's Spanish army is in the UP, regardless of how they got there (so event C11 is not necessarily required). If Spinola has become a leader loss, any other Spanish leader can command the army in the UP. If neither Spinola nor his replacement leader then the Spanish units move to the UP without a leader.

6.0 Sequence of Play

Player order: For any "order of play" question assume the Protestants go first, unless rules say otherwise.

7.0 Wallenstein

OPTIONAL RULE: The Imperial leader Wallenstein should be considered a two-star Dynamic Leader, which means that he must command every army he is stacked with. If this rule works well, we'll try to get a replacement Wallenstein counter printed in C3I.

When Recruiting, Wallenstein gets a cumulative +2 drm (not +3 as some have asked).

8.0 Strategy Cards

8.4. Recruitment. Leaders can recruit in Independent Cities, subject to nationality restrictions. Besieged leaders cannot recruit. Besieging leaders can recruit.

8.6. Events.

Recovery Events are not bound by the same restrictions as 15.25.
When a strategy card states "Unless discarded, Event always takes effect", and the card is played as an ACT, REC, or AID, the event takes place after the ACT, REC, or AID.

Card Events that affect Aid totals (for example, event P24) are not retroactive, and affect all subsequent Aid cards, even those in future turns, until the event is cancelled.

When Saxony switches sides, what happens to Saxon units (and/or leaders) stacked with previously friendly units (and/or leaders)? Any Saxon units and/or leaders return to any (now friendly) Saxony space. If no space is available due to stacking limits, the overstacked Saxon units are destroyed. NOTE: the units "teleport" to the space, they do not have to move there normally. If the Saxons are besieged/besieging, any siege ends, since the once enemy besieging/besieged units are now friendly. However, if the Saxons were stacked with friendly units prior to switching sides, the siege continues and the Saxons are on the once enemy side of the siege.

9.0 Special Event Cards

9.2. When an Area enters the game on the Protestant side (for example, event P28), if the Area is already Catholic controlled, any unoccupied Catholic-controlled city immediately switches to Protestant control upon play of the Event. Catholic-occupied cities do not switch control. If all cities in the Area are Catholic-occupied, the Event may not be played.

9.4. Peasant Revolts: Fortress Cities can be placed in Revolt, but siege is not required to suppress the Revolt. Historically this happened frequently, when the locals would revolt and the garrison would shut itself up in the fortress to await help. A City with a Revolt marker is considered Neutral for all game purposes, which essentially means that you cannot trace a LOC through it but can Retreat into the City. Ending a retreat in the city would remove the Revolt marker. If an Area has a number of cities in Revolt so that the controlling player does not have the minimum number of cities required for control of the area, the controlling player loses the Area's VP value. Remove the control marker from the Area's control box as a reminder. Once either player gains control of enough cities, including via Revolt supression, to equal the Area's control rating, that player gains control of the Area and the appropriate VP modifier. So the possibility of a VP double-whammy exists, where a player can lose an Area's VPs through Revolt and then lose them again through the opposing player gaining control of the Area. This is purposeful, to make players view Revolts as serious threats. Again, the Peasant Revolts represent widespread insurrection that the historic rulers felt obliged to suppress quickly and harshly. If enough cities in an Area are in Revolt to force a player to remove his control marker and lose the Area's VP value, VP loss from Peasant Revolt is not permanent; ie if an owning player loses an Area's VP bonus due to Peasant Revolt, the VP bonus is regained once enough Revolt markers have been removed to restore control.

10. Leaders and Unit Stacking

10.12. A leader may activate more than one army per activation, by moving from army to army, as long as the leader does not exceed his 8 MPs.

10.14 Aside from Rule 10.14 regarding Dynamic Leaders, there are no leader hierarchy requirements.

10.15 Stacking during Sieges: Stacking limits of 8 units per side apply even during a siege. So, for example, if 2 Protestant units were being besieged and a Protestant army entered the city to attempt to relieve the siege, the maximum size of the Protestant relieving army would be 6 units (6 outside the fortress plus 2 inside= 8 total).

10.22. Units may move through spaces containing friendly units they cannot stack with. Units can retreat into a space containing friendly units they cannot stack with (12.54) but then 10.22 applies at the end of the retreat and the owning player must eliminate enough units to bring the space under stacking limits and nationality restrictions. The owning player must choose which leaders and/or units to eliminate due to violating nationality stacking restrictions.

11. Movement

11.14. A unit may not be "dropped off" more than once per activation. Once dropped off from a moving army, the unit's movement is done for the activation.

11.16. Foraging: Foraging requirements are based on the size of the army at the start of its movement, plus any units added during the activation. Units that the army ends its turn stacked with, but did not move with the army during the activation, are not added. If an army cannot Forage due to entering all cities at Pillage Level 2, the army suffers a number of step losses equal to the unsatisfied foraging levels. The owning player decides which unit(s) will suffer these step losses.

11.23. A leader counter by itself may retreat inside a Fortress just like a unit can.

Reaction: When reacting into a Fortress, all units must either react into the fortress or all must stay outside the fortress.

12. Combat

12.53. Retreats: A retreating attacker must retreat back to the city from which it entered the space to initiate combat, even if that city is an unbesieged fortress.

13. Siege Combat

13.12. An activated leader is required to place a Siege Marker, as well as to roll on the Siege Combat table during card rounds. A leader is not required for the besieging force to roll for Siege Combat during Phase F.1. Note that a leader may place a Siege Marker after regular combat in a fortress city space, but may not roll for Siege Combat during that same activation.

13.14. An LOC can be traced through a hex containing friendly besieging or masking units.

13.2. Activating an army for Siege Combat does not require foraging.

13.26. When attempting to relieve a siege, the units inside the fortress may join in the combat, but only if there are leaders with enough leadership ratings to add the units inside the fortress. The Leadership Ratings may come from outside and/or inside the besieged fortress. However, the the Battle Rating used must come from the leader who commanded the relieving army, even if a leader is present with the besieged units.

15. Paying Units

15.12. Independent Cities within an Area eligible for Auto Pay (like, for example, Aachen in the Spanish Netherlands), do not allow Auto Pay.

15.2. For the "majority of Veteran/Mercenary" modifiers on the Looting Table, only the majority of Looting units are considered, not every unit in the army.

16. Dutch Wars

16.24. Card Event C-18 does not require Spinola's army to be in the UP.

17. National Effects

17.Sw.1. If the P44 event is played, Torstennson is placed at the Swedish base.
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Nombre de messages : 77
Age : 57
Localisation : St-Lambert (Québec)
Date d'inscription : 12/07/2006

MessageSujet: Re: Guerre de trente ans : Erratas   Dim 16 Juil - 10:05

J'ai exposé ci-dessus les erratas officiels, mais de notre côté, lorsque nous jouons, nous avons adopté aussi les modifications suivantes (erratas maisons en quelque sorte) :

1) Mortalité des officiers (règle 12.4)

Il est proposé de réduire les chances de mortalité de la façon suivante : l’officier n’est tué que si le dé excède le facteur de perte (« loss rating »). Si le dé est égal au facteur de perte, il est considéré blessé et retiré du jeu pour un tour. Il peut être remis en jeu au début du tour suivant sur une pile correspondant à sa nationalité.

2) Aide aux alliés assiégés dans le cadre d’une interdiction d’empilement entre armées alliées.

Cette proposition est plutôt une clarification qu’une nouvelle règle. Les règles de base sont muettes qu’en à la possibilité d’inclure des armées assiégées lorsqu’une armée alliée intervient contre les assiégeants. Pour clarifier les choses, GMT a publié sur son site la règle suivant :

13.26. When attempting to relieve a siege, the units inside the fortress may join in the combat, but only if there are leaders with enough LeadershipRatings to add the units inside the fortress. The Leadership Ratings may come from outside and/or inside the besieged fortress. However, the Battle Rating used must come from the leader who comanded the relieving army, even if a leader is present with the besieged units.

Cette clarification ne permet toutefois pas de savoir si deux armées alliées, n’ayant pas le droit d’être empilées ensemble, peuvent se prévaloir de ce privilège. Cela est d’autant plus nécessaire qu’il est possible, pour deux armées alliés soumises à cette restriction d’empilement (règle 17.0), d’occuper la même case pendant un mouvement, du moment qu’on ne s’y arrête pas.

Par conséquent, il est proposé de permettre à la règle 13.26 de s’appliquer dans le cas de deux armées alliées soumises à une restriction d’empilement en vertu de 17.0. Cependant, si l’armée assiégeante est chassée lors d’une telle opération, l’armée alliée venue au secours de l’armée alliée assiégée devra retraiter à la fin du combat afin de respecter la restriction d’empilement.

Autres variantes que je n'ai pas essayé toutefois :



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Nombre de messages : 18
Localisation : UE, France, Maisons-Laffitte
Date d'inscription : 16/07/2006

MessageSujet: Re: Guerre de trente ans : Erratas   Mar 18 Juil - 13:24

Je me permets de déconseiller de jouer l'errata de la mortalité des leaders.

Je peux comprendre que les joueurs novices y voient là un logique ajustement à une règle particulièrement rude et meurtrière mais ils y perdront en philosophie du jeu.
Une bataille à l'époque (comme une campagne d'ailleurs) n'était jamais sans risque et j'ai pu constaté que la mortalité des chefs correspondait plutot bien à la réalité de l'époque. Du coup, le turn over des leaders me parait être essentiel dans ce jeu afin qu'il garde son ame si exotique et original.

Maintenant... "Chacun fait fait fait... C'qui lui plait plait plait ..." Wink
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